Chat History with WTANZ11 Close Reading (#marlena.compton/$183ee11c9cb0a657)

Created on 2010-11-21 18:20:07.


Michael Larsen: 16:18:02
hello everyone.
Marlena Compton: 16:25:24
You guys wil have to bear with me.  I'm doing an email password dance for my weekend testing email account.
Michael Larsen: 16:29:03
no worries :).
Oliver Erlewein: 16:30:07
hey all
Richard R: 16:30:30
Hi guys and girls
Oliver Erlewein: 16:30:41
My mouse just died
Oliver Erlewein: 16:30:50
2nd one in 3 months
Oliver Erlewein: 16:30:52
Michael Larsen: 16:30:56
aww, poor thing.
Richard R: 16:32:07
too much <ss type="muscle">(flex)</ss> maybe
Marlena Compton: 16:32:25
Hi Everyone, are you guys ready to get started?
Oliver Erlewein: 16:33:14
ready...sort of.
Richard R: 16:33:17
Oliver Erlewein: 16:33:30
feel a bit handicapped with an old mouse
Marlena Compton: 16:33:52
I think you'll be ok this week.
Marlena Compton: 16:34:00
Here is our mission:
Marlena Compton: 16:34:02
This week I spent a lot of time reading about critical thinking skills.  When I hear people discussing skills that testers need to have, critical thinking skills gets mentioned all the time.  Despite this, if you asked me before this week, I would not have been able to give you a list of skills need for critical thinking.  Even now, the list I've got only comes from one source.  Here's the list I currently consider to be critical thinking skills:

* Categorization
* Identifying a sequence
* Comparison
* Following directions
* Close reading

This week, we will focus on the skill of close reading and what that means when we find errors and report them.  

Close reading is a skill applied when you need to read something at a very fine level of detail in order to get the most accurate interpretation you can.  The classic excercise for sharpening this skill is to read a very detailed passage of information and then answer multiple choice questions about it.  I've put together a few exercises for us to work through together.
Michael Larsen: 16:34:58
Ohhh, I'm getting flashbacks of BBST Foundations (LOL!).
Marlena Compton: 16:35:14
O rly?
Richard R: 16:36:25
Ok, this looks great. Im terrible as deciphering fine detail. I usually read only the first 2 words of a sentence.
Michael Larsen: 16:36:29
Quizzes that require a very detailed and critical read.
Michael Larsen: 16:36:41
Very frustrating, but also very instructive.
Oliver Erlewein: 16:36:50
@RR: Oh goodie. You're going to suffer ;-)
Marlena Compton: 16:37:12
The first thing we're going to do is look at 3 issues that have all been marked as duplicates in the Atlassian issue tracker.  Read closely through all three and make some notes for yourself about which one is the clearest to you.  We will come back together and discuss in 10 minutes.
Marlena Compton: 16:37:46
I'm not too great at close reading.  It's my weakest critical thinking skill and it busts me all the time.
Marlena Compton: 16:38:07
There should be links to 2 other issues off of that issue link.
Oliver Erlewein: 16:38:19
@M: Reading is so hard because it is seldomly adequate to describe complex behaviour.
Oliver Erlewein: 16:38:38
Why do you think maths doesn't use text to describe things?
Michael Larsen: 16:38:56
Oliver, I knopw the feeling.
Marlena Compton: 16:39:03
We can talk about that after we read through the issues (hint!)
Michael Larsen: 16:39:45
Even in my own blog, I find that things I've written and experienced myself, after several months, I go back to read and its like "wait, who wrote this? what's this about?!"
Vishavdeep Sharma: 16:40:25
Hi everyone, I kind of got last meeting notice by chance

but glad to be here
Marlena Compton: 16:41:19
Hi Vish, Our mission is above.  You're not too late.  We're all reading through some issues and will come back together to discuss at 4:50 (that's like 10 minutes)
Richard R: 16:42:12
Hey Vish
Michael Larsen: 16:42:28
Hi Vish.
Vishavdeep Sharma: 16:43:49
hello, i was reading messages and doing a catch up
Vishavdeep Sharma: 16:43:54
will be reading the issues now
Oliver Erlewein: 16:44:33
Sitting here holding my belly laughing so hard! This is great!
Oliver Erlewein: 16:44:52
When can we have at it?
Marlena Compton: 16:45:18
We got 5 minutes.
Marlena Compton: 16:48:38
Is everyone ready to discuss?
Oliver Erlewein: 16:48:52
here goes...
Michael Larsen: 16:48:55
I think so.
Marlena Compton: 16:48:56
hang on
Oliver Erlewein: 16:48:58
1. Two defects look similar ADVMACROS-189 and CONF-21271
2. The one defect is from 3 weeks ago (conf-20791) the others from wednesday
3. The one from Wednesday is closed and the one from 3 weeks ago is still open.
4. The one is a bug (conf-20791) the others are a Improvement (!!!)
Richard R: 16:49:12
Marlena Compton: 16:49:47
I'd like to give each person the opportunity to share their results, then we'll discuss.  Oliver, have you got more results to share?
Oliver Erlewein: 16:49:59
yes, one sec
Oliver Erlewein: 16:50:08
5. The ones from Wednesday have pics but long text with grammatical errors and very misunderstandable
Michael Larsen: 16:50:31
ADVMACROS-189 and CONF-21271 are nearly identical if you put them side by side.
Oliver Erlewein: 16:50:32
6. The defect 20791 is in my opinion the better one as I can clearly understand the issue
Michael Larsen: 16:50:52
20791 is simpler to read and follow.
Oliver Erlewein: 16:50:56
Michael Larsen: 16:51:17
I had to read the iother two several times to make sure i understood what I was reading.
Michael Larsen: 16:51:31
Missed the status details, though, that's funny.
Oliver Erlewein: 16:51:34
the software version numbers are quite inconsistent.
Oliver Erlewein: 16:52:03
so maybe different software?! same defect?
Michael Larsen: 16:52:21
duplicate is almost too weak a word for the two issues, though. they're almost identical.
Marlena Compton: 16:52:22
Richard, what are your observations?
Oliver Erlewein: 16:52:30
Both similar ones are raised by the same person. Why?
Michael Larsen: 16:52:49
it' like they copied and pasted to make both bugs.
Marlena Compton: 16:53:01
Vish, have you got results to share?
Oliver Erlewein: 16:53:12
@ML: he as in Brad
Richard R: 16:53:19
I liked the report ADVMACROS-189 the best as it had loads more information than the other two, such as:
- versions
- security level
I like how 2 reports had screen shots to back up the observations, and how the reports can be related to each other.
HOwever, I did not like having to track the status of each of them, and find out which one superseded the other etc.
Richard R: 16:53:53
Over all, I disliked all of them.
Marlena Compton: 16:53:59
Sathya, have you got results to share?
Vishavdeep Sharma: 16:54:47
i have these so far

1. components agianst which isses are reported are are different comments of CONF-20791 Mark has included that issue extendes to othe rtype of attachemnts aso (PDF) and effect not only images

3. same issue is looked as bug and improvement
Oliver Erlewein: 16:55:29
@VS: So actually 20791 isn't a Duplicate but an extension!
Oliver Erlewein: 16:56:09
And why is 20791 Minor and the others Major?
Vishavdeep Sharma: 16:57:01
genreally these such duplicate circular dependencies annoys me in projects
Oliver Erlewein: 16:57:56
It would have been good if the "old" defect (20791) would have been marked duplicate and it's content copied into the comments of 21271
Marlena Compton: 16:57:58
I liked the fact that one of them had the screenshots, and I also noticed that 1 guy had reported 2 of them but they had been marked as duplicates.
Oliver Erlewein: 16:58:16
you really didn't need screen shots for this defect
Oliver Erlewein: 16:58:52
I think the screenshots are just there to compensate for the badly written description (although the description was excellently organised)
Marlena Compton: 16:59:04
I guess I understand what's in them more quickly than actually having to read through the issue :P
Richard R: 16:59:18
i agree with both of you on that one
Vishavdeep Sharma: 16:59:29
screen shots help
Oliver Erlewein: 16:59:32
well then start the discussion on who a defect should be written for.
Oliver Erlewein: 16:59:52
I think 20791 is pretty much understandable for a lay person 21271 is not
Oliver Erlewein: 17:00:19
@VS: Generally yes but I think 20791 proves you don't need them.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:00:43
Why do I need a screenshot in a defect that shows an error I mentioned in the text?
Michael Larsen: 17:00:45
the original issue would be sufficient in my book.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:00:58
What original issue?
Michael Larsen: 17:01:04
Oliver Erlewein: 17:01:10
Michael Larsen: 17:01:18
the pictures, while nice, didn't really add to the report.
Marlena Compton: 17:01:20
@MK you mean 21271?
Oliver Erlewein: 17:01:52
Marlena Compton: 17:02:45
So type in the number of the one you got the most information from.
Michael Larsen: 17:02:59
I mean the pictures added to 21721 didn't reaqlly add gto the explanation.
Michael Larsen: 17:03:13
20791 di well enough without any.
Michael Larsen: 17:03:54
@MC... are you asking for most information or most effective information?
Marlena Compton: 17:04:10
haha...I guess that would be most effective information.
Michael Larsen: 17:04:17
ora miI being difficult ;)?
Michael Larsen: 17:04:55
for me, I found 20791 to have the most effective information, from  a descriptive view.
Michael Larsen: 17:05:25
it was simple and uncluttered, and I didn't have to read ith through multiple times to get what it was saying.
Marlena Compton: 17:06:01
Anyone else care to weigh in on the issue they felt contained the most effective information?
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:06:28
CONF-21271 is more usefull and complete for me
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:06:39
20791 does not have expected outcome
Marlena Compton: 17:07:52
I agree with Vish.  I prefer to have the screenshot with the error because I can see how the error was reported.
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:07:56
ADVMACROS-189 is duplicate of CONF-21271
Marlena Compton: 17:09:34
I guess I like the fact that I can see where the error is located on the page and that the user still has a page.
Michael Larsen: 17:10:09
I guess for me it's a matter of expectations.
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:10:38

and I liked the fact expectd result

The page loads and the gallery macro renders a table of images sorted by comment. Any images without a comment will be sorted to show up at the beginning or end of the list.
Michael Larsen: 17:10:50
My system ism primarily test based, and adding attachments like pictures is a bit of a pain and drags the user outside of the workflow.
Michael Larsen: 17:11:05
so I'm used to the more terse descriptions.
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:11:15
is mentioned, having an expected results tells me what is expected correct behaviour when this issue gets fixed
Oliver Erlewein: 17:11:21
Michael Larsen: 17:11:28
not necessarily better or worse, just what I'm accustomed to.
Marlena Compton: 17:11:33
I think I see what you're saying.  The screenshot provides too much other information that could be focused on aside from the defect.
Michael Larsen: 17:11:37
I can see Vish's point, though.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:12:06
I mean that a NPE is not expected behaviour is *duh*
Michael Larsen: 17:12:15
the above comment should read "Text based" btw :).
Michael Larsen: 17:12:41
yes, it's a distraction, really.
Richard R: 17:13:00
I agree with Michael. Although I find bug reports very clear when there is a scrren shot. And in some cases, you MUST provide a screen shot as it is the agreed procedure. But I find more times than not, adding screen shots slows down the reporting process for the tested by a significant amount, and if your testers have a good command of the english language, then they should be able to express their observation in meaningful and concise words/descriptions.
Michael Larsen: 17:13:00
or at least I would see it as such.
Michael Larsen: 17:13:17
the text description give me enough to go on.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:13:19
Think of the developer fixing this bug. You say NPE at position X and he'll be going "yeah right.....fixed"
Oliver Erlewein: 17:13:43
so I'd spend as little time as possible with the defect and as little clutter for the dev to get through
Oliver Erlewein: 17:13:46
which is 20791
Oliver Erlewein: 17:14:22
Now if it were a functional thing with complex flows I would argue differently
Marlena Compton: 17:14:32
Here's a question:  Does the screenshot create a distraction by being making the issue too scanable?  Is the reader more likely to look at all of the other details if there is no screenshot?
Michael Larsen: 17:14:57
again, I think it comes down to expectation.
Michael Larsen: 17:15:10
and convntion.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:15:27
Well, I had to look at the screenshot because I found the defect really hard to understand (and the screenshots didn't help!). 20791 then did the trick.
Richard R: 17:15:31
I would argue that if the details dont make clear sense, then the SS will be referred to. But, as always, it requires more effort to open the SS, so it will be a last resort. That my opinion from experience.
Michael Larsen: 17:15:43
In my practice, we spell out the steps to get us to a point, we mention what we observed, and then what we expect to se.
Michael Larsen: 17:16:31
ideally in as little space as possible to get the point across.
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:16:34
r we deviating from topic of discussion ?
Oliver Erlewein: 17:16:44
If you read most books on testing they go on and on how a defect should look like. And they are not WRONG but are they EFIICIENT?
Michael Larsen: 17:16:49
possib ly. sorry.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:17:21
And I think like so many things in testing context is important and the context is not only the tested object and the defect
Marlena Compton: 17:17:30
One more question before we go to the next activity:  What did someone else mention in the defect that you missed?
Oliver Erlewein: 17:18:01
it's also SDLC, relationship to development and expected turn-around amongst others
Marlena Compton: 17:18:12
I didn't notice the comments about this being possible with pdf
Oliver Erlewein: 17:18:19
same here
Oliver Erlewein: 17:18:33
or I didn't put any importance to it
Marlena Compton: 17:18:52
Anyone else care to answer or are we ready to move on?
Michael Larsen: 17:19:15
I didn't see that the newer iossues were resolved but the older one was not.
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:19:26
i mentioned one of the tickets mentioning about pdf scenario
Richard R: 17:19:41
Michael Larsen: 17:20:12
Also, convention here, but in the event of a duplicate, normally the older issue would take precedence, and the duplicate issue would be merged into the older one.
Michael Larsen: 17:20:30
Others mileage may vary.
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:20:32
comments on the tickets give important info but often end up witj 2 many comments on aticket which goes like a chain of questions and answers and becomes hard to make any sense  fromm them
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:21:11
i agree iwth Michael on duplicate precendence
Marlena Compton: 17:21:27
I'm now thinking about which areas of the issue I pay less attention to.
Marlena Compton: 17:21:45
But we should probably move on in our discussion.  So, next activity.
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:21:54
Oliver Erlewein: 17:22:01
Michael Larsen: 17:22:06
yep :).
Oliver Erlewein: 17:22:23
btw 20791 was probably never seen and not listed as duplicate
Michael Larsen: 17:22:43
ah, good point
Marlena Compton: 17:23:53
I'm going to paste a link to an error message.  Often error messages don't have enough or the right information.  I'm going to paste links to some error messages from Ben Simo's blog:
Marlena Compton: 17:25:14
We'll take a minute or two to read them, and compare our interpretations about how we might change the message.  First one:
Oliver Erlewein: 17:26:01
That is wishful thinking!
Michael Larsen: 17:26:10
man, that's funny :).
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:26:25
Marlena Compton: 17:26:27
I thought we could use some comedy.
Michael Larsen: 17:26:43
I could go for days on "unhelpful message text" from my company's apps ;).
Oliver Erlewein: 17:26:54
I'd like to have seen "Yes" "No" buttons.
Marlena Compton: 17:27:04
Oliver Erlewein: 17:27:04
Or rather "Yes" and "Yes"
Michael Larsen: 17:27:32
Yes is no and No is Yes... Delete all files?!
Michael Larsen: 17:27:48
or am I the only one old enough to remember BOGH?
Marlena Compton: 17:27:55
Michael Larsen: 17:27:58
sorry, BOFH.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:28:30
Just thought for a second there..... Bastard Operator.... GH????? like in Go Home?!
Marlena Compton: 17:29:02
Second message:
Michael Larsen: 17:29:13
sorry, typo on my part, but no I meant Bastard Operator From Hell ;).
Oliver Erlewein: 17:29:26
Yeah, know that fault!
Michael Larsen: 17:29:43
Yep,  ssen that one.I'v
Marlena Compton: 17:30:58
Would you guys like to try a stack trace?  See if you can figure it out?
Oliver Erlewein: 17:31:05
Hmmmm.... Seen this defect before, I have.
Michael Larsen: 17:31:23
Heh, why not :)?
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:31:24
for second message, is this case of error msg shown is from a different windows operation and concurrently user is trying to open a ppt
Oliver Erlewein: 17:31:39
Oliver Erlewein: 17:31:45
it IS ppt
SathyaKhala: 17:32:18
Hi all
Oliver Erlewein: 17:32:26
I remember that right after that I opened Keynote on my mac and never looked back (at least not when I wasn't forced to do so)
Marlena Compton: 17:32:30
Hi Sathya
SathyaKhala: 17:32:36
Sorry Am i late
SathyaKhala: 17:32:39
Marlena Compton: 17:33:09
I found us a stack JIRA issue with a stack trace.  Let's  see what we can gather from it:
Oliver Erlewein: 17:34:11
why is this classed as "Improvement"? It's a DEFECT
Marlena Compton: 17:34:54
@Oliver That's a good question.  I can ask the reporter tomorrow.
Michael Larsen: 17:35:04
Haha :)! Oliver beat me to it.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:35:07
It's from March 2010! And it's unassigned!? Are you trying to get me off JIRA?
Michael Larsen: 17:35:23
do stack traces not get a lot of play?
Marlena Compton: 17:35:32
Is this an issue for the JIRA product?
Michael Larsen: 17:35:56
it looks like it's interpreting the brackert character as something else, and it's throwing an exceptin.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:36:04
Ah sorry....confluence then. Haven't got that.
Marlena Compton: 17:36:13
close reading!
Oliver Erlewein: 17:36:31
Odd thing is the stack trace doesn't complain about the [
Oliver Erlewein: 17:36:39
but the character thereafter
Oliver Erlewein: 17:36:51
so i'm guessing we're talking escape sequence here
Marlena Compton: 17:37:08
You mean:  Encountered: <EOF> after : ""
Oliver Erlewein: 17:37:15
Oliver Erlewein: 17:37:32
@line 1 column 4
Oliver Erlewein: 17:37:46
[ would be column 3 I guess
Michael Larsen: 17:38:19
but wait.
Michael Larsen: 17:38:33
there's no first bracket in the search.
Michael Larsen: 17:39:03
we have a string that consists of "da]".
Oliver Erlewein: 17:39:18
By the book this defect is not well written but again I think it's sufficient for a developer to understand what he/she needs to do. Problem is because it's an improvement there's no criticality or priority therefore...
Oliver Erlewein: 17:39:36
a) would not get fixed because improvements are done after go-live for version 2.0
Michael Larsen: 17:39:45
Now from my days in doing UNIX shell scripting, which admittedly was many years ago, brackets were used to contain commands to be executed.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:40:15
b) if it were picked up it might get classed as minor instead of major (or vice versa and time would be wasted on an insignifficant defect)
Marlena Compton: 17:40:15
Kind of like the back quote.
Michael Larsen: 17:40:38
yes, exactly.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:41:07
ahhhh... you think the PHP/Perl/Python cgi was influenced...
Oliver Erlewein: 17:41:14
hi keis
Oliver Erlewein: 17:41:49
so what we actually have is a non safe input field
Keis: 17:41:53
thanks, Marlena! Hi, Oliver! :)
Oliver Erlewein: 17:41:56
Marlena Compton: 17:42:07
A non-safe input field?
Michael Larsen: 17:42:10
yeah, I think this issue was blown over because it was marked as improvement, but just from the reaqding, this looks like it could open  the door to a real breach.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:42:55
Michael Larsen: 17:43:09
again, I don't have the full context here, but this should not be a low priority issue lying around without anyone examining it.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:43:14
safe input field does not allow any chars to get through to program code
Marlena Compton: 17:43:45
I think I say what y'all are saying.  It's trying to excecute on the "]"
Oliver Erlewein: 17:43:54
Oliver Erlewein: 17:44:23
I think you were right. It's trying to close a statement in the original program code being executed on the web server
Marlena Compton: 17:44:45
Oliver Erlewein: 17:44:46
so it's interpreting the field input as program code
Oliver Erlewein: 17:44:59
of the original source
Michael Larsen: 17:45:05
that's how I'd see it.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:45:10
not as javascript or something
Marlena Compton: 17:45:55
What makes it interesting to me is that you've got the stack trace complaining about casting within a servlet
Marlena Compton: 17:46:40
Which says to me that it's not just unable to handle the symbol "]" It's trying to do something with it.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:46:40
which I think would support my theory (not knowing diddly squat about Java)
Marlena Compton: 17:47:08
Ok, well I found 1 more issue that might be interesting if you guys still have energy.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:47:17
fire away
Michael Larsen: 17:47:19
ure, go ahead :).
Michael Larsen: 17:47:26
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:47:27
pointing towards sql injection
Marlena Compton: 17:47:47
@Vish oh yeah?
Marlena Compton: 17:48:13
Here's the other issue:
Marlena Compton: 17:48:37
I know the dev who filed the other one.  I'll talk with him about it tomorrow.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:49:45
I'll just say one thing here.... W T F
Michael Larsen: 17:49:50
oh, these are painful LOL
Michael Larsen: 17:50:08
so wait.
Marlena Compton: 17:50:10
Well, I asked if y'all were up for it.  :P
Richard R: 17:50:12
Is it against the rules of Bug Reporting to ask the reported to go back and add more info? To me there is much data missing. You need to go to the comments section to get more context around it...
Michael Larsen: 17:50:18
It's resolved but it can't be reproduced.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:50:32
No but closing it until there is is a real faux pas
Michael Larsen: 17:50:42
isn't that "kinda bad form"?
Richard R: 17:51:22
@Oliver - i agree. its bad news to close down the defect as unproducible, when a full investigation may not have been taken out
Marlena Compton: 17:51:22
Should I mention that the dev who closed this has moved on?
Oliver Erlewein: 17:51:26
And in my team I'd have had a word with Andy and Andrew.
Michael Larsen: 17:51:31
Richard, nope not against the rules at all. In fact, i often do that when we get issues from those not commonly reporting issues.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:51:44
If you don't understand a defect GO TALK TO THE TESTER!
Michael Larsen: 17:51:47
I often have to fill in the blanks or get them to provide more info.
Richard R: 17:51:53
@Michael - exactly. I would push this one back to the reporter.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:52:26
Devs writing things back is just a nuisance delaying tactick
Marlena Compton: 17:52:45
So what about the stack trace?  Does it give any useful information about the problem?
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:53:02
sorry guyz, i will have to leave
Oliver Erlewein: 17:53:06
btw, nowhere does it state this problem is not reproducible!
Oliver Erlewein: 17:53:13
cu Vish
Marlena Compton: 17:53:18
Thanks for participating Vish :)
Michael Larsen: 17:53:34
Status: resolved
Michael Larsen: 17:53:47
Resolution< cannot reproduce
Oliver Erlewein: 17:53:59
It just states the dev lacks creativity filling in the holes the tester left in the defect description to reproduce the defect ;-)
Michael Larsen: 17:54:14
from the details.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:54:24
But Resolution is wrong
Michael Larsen: 17:54:32
agreed :).
Oliver Erlewein: 17:54:42
At least from what we can gather from the text.
Vishavdeep Sharma: 17:54:54
Oliver Erlewein: 17:55:07
Cannot reproduce means that with the SAME process the error will not show up again.
Marlena Compton: 17:55:09
FWIW The version listed is a beta release version.
Michael Larsen: 17:55:17
Bye Visha
Oliver Erlewein: 17:55:24
@MC: So?!
Marlena Compton: 17:56:01
I see ur point.
Michael Larsen: 17:56:23
My critique is with the fact that the original report has the stack trace, and a mention that every admin page generates the stack trace. Seems to me the tester can reproduce easily.
Michael Larsen: 17:56:44
Developer needs to have a chat with tester and say "OK, show me how you make this happen!"
Oliver Erlewein: 17:56:57
Yes but in the comments it also asks something like "what admin?"
Oliver Erlewein: 17:57:11
so there's vital data missing in the defect report
Marlena Compton: 17:57:36
There are 2 types of admin in confluence.  One is global and one is specific to a space.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:57:42
but yes, communication would have cleared this up in about 30seconds + "travel" time
Michael Larsen: 17:58:13
Am I the only one who finds this statement deeply disturbing?
Michael Larsen: 17:58:15
We need more information to be able to debug this problem further. Closing until more information is supplied and then we can re-open.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:58:40
hmmmm... resolved 26.05.2009, last updated 16.09.2009.....hmmmm....
Michael Larsen: 17:58:56
To borrow a texas colloquialism... that Dog Don't Hunt!!!
Marlena Compton: 17:59:08
One of the problems we have because our issue tracker is open is that people will open defects but they won't always reply if we ask further  questions.  Appears to be what happened here, but then you have someone who has added another comment.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:59:11
@Michael: Look at my comments above. Was my first comment.
Oliver Erlewein: 17:59:13
Oliver Erlewein: 18:00:08
Ok and then it should be activated again for review not stay closed (but understand where you're coming from)
Michael Larsen: 18:00:15
Ah, is that what your WTF was about? If so, then agreed.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:00:28
Pretty much
Marlena Compton: 18:00:42
Are we ready to wrap up?
Michael Larsen: 18:01:04
I guess so.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:01:23
Like the PM that I overheard say to a Test Lead..."Close all the defects you have discovered and re-raise them". ....after some time they managed to pull me off the PM in question.
Marlena Compton: 18:01:25
We don't have to, if you've got more you wanna talk about on this one.
Michael Larsen: 18:02:03
Well, Again, it's easy to criticize when it's not yuour place, but I'm sure I could just as easily pull out examples from my own system.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:02:04
can we do a conclusion on what this all had to do with critical thinking and the original question?
Marlena Compton: 18:02:32
hahaha...yes, of course.  That's what I was after.
Marlena Compton: 18:02:50
I can re-paste here
Michael Larsen: 18:03:37
In my own bug system, we have a field called "needs further review".
Marlena Compton: 18:04:04
This week I spent a lot of time reading about critical thinking skills.  When I hear people discussing skills that testers need to have, critical thinking skills gets mentioned all the time.  Despite this, if you asked me before this week, I would not have been able to give you a list of skills need for critical thinking.  Even now, the list I've got only comes from one source.  Here's the list I currently consider to be critical thinking skills:

* Categorization
* Identifying a sequence
* Comparison
* Following directions
* Close reading

This week, we will focus on the skill of close reading and what that means when we find errors and report them.  

Close reading is a skill applied when you need to read something at a very fine level of detail in order to get the most accurate interpretation you can.  The classic excercise for sharpening this skill is to read a very detailed passage of information and then answer multiple choice questions about it.  I've put together a few exercises for us to work through together.
Michael Larsen: 18:04:06
It's a good bet that if a bug gets that designation, it'll never see the light of day without a heavy bout of evangelism and advocacy.
Marlena Compton: 18:04:38
"cannot reproduce" is the toll of death for us.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:04:53
For me this was the first time a WTANZ felt like work. I get these things every day and you read them and go OMG can't ppl read/understand/write/use brains?.... and then you have to go and clean up all that mess that's been done because of some niggly mis-communication. Nice to see I'm not the only one with that problem ;-)
Michael Larsen: 18:05:22
No Oliver, not at all (LOL!).
Oliver Erlewein: 18:05:30
@Marlena: Cannot Reproduce either points to 1) bad defect descriptions 2) idiot devs 3) a vastly too complex system.
Michael Larsen: 18:05:45
Some bugs are inpenetrable until you sit down and really tease them apart.
Marlena Compton: 18:05:54
This was the hardest WTANZ ever to put together.
Michael Larsen: 18:06:00
In my view, as testers, we can be part of the solution or part of the problem.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:06:10
btw now know the standards you'll be measured on ;-)
Michael Larsen: 18:06:25
When I write bugs, I gtry to follow some basic steps that were drilled into me from when I had to have bugs translated into Japanese.
Michael Larsen: 18:06:46
Clear steps getting to the proble.
Marlena Compton: 18:06:48
translated into Japanese...that's omg.
Richard R: 18:07:05
I thought this session was good because it reinforces again the importance of things like:
1. proof reading and reviewing your defect report
2. create and stick to a basic level of understanding of the reporting procedure
3. critiquing reports to ensure they are fit for purpose
4. getting an idea for how much importance Oliver places on such reports ;)
Michael Larsen: 18:07:17
Well, I didn't translate them, but I had to frequently rewrite bugs and reports to remove any ambiguousl language.
Michael Larsen: 18:07:23
It was a pain, but I learned a lot from it.
Michael Larsen: 18:07:30
Kinda wish I still ahd that discipline
Marlena Compton: 18:07:40
I think I rely too much on screen shots.  I'm thinking about this.
Richard R: 18:08:06
@Marlena: SS are a good CYA component of reports
Oliver Erlewein: 18:08:14
oh and for those not part of the inside joke, Richard will be working for me from the 28th onwards. His a** is mine then! :-D
Richard R: 18:08:51
Haha, looking forward to the work Oliver :)
Marlena Compton: 18:08:57
I don't know whether to congratulate Richard or pray for him (j/k)
Michael Larsen: 18:09:22
Anyway, soI don't get to broken up...
1. State the steps to the situation.
2. State the observed situation as unambiguously as possible.
3. State the solution (we often called this the MUST statement).
4. Attach any supporting details.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:09:26
@Marlena: Have a look at OSS product Salome. It has a in browser screen shot button! That sooooo much speeds up taking screenshots and pasting them in.
Marlena Compton: 18:10:02
We've had something like that developed in house.  They are thinking of releasing it as a product.
Marlena Compton: 18:10:18
If you use JIRA and you want to try it out, I can speak with my boss.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:10:51
btw my emoyment "test" for testers includes two things about defects. a) critique a defect given and b) write an imaginary defect Richard knows ;-)
Richard R: 18:11:05
JIRA gets a good rap around Welly. Well done Marlena <ss type="yes">(y)</ss>
Richard R: 18:11:08
Richard R: 18:11:14
Michael Larsen: 18:11:24
naah, I like that LOL
Oliver Erlewein: 18:11:32
Yeah. CQ and others are really loosing out big time
Marlena Compton: 18:11:46
JIRA is good at breaking dev hearts ;)
Richard R: 18:11:57
Oliver Erlewein: 18:11:57
Our devs love it.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:12:10
They just hate our guts (testers that is)
Oliver Erlewein: 18:12:33
ok. I gotta move on. Are we done here?
Oliver Erlewein: 18:12:45
Marlena Compton: 18:12:48
If you guys liked this session, I might try another aspect of critical thinking next time.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:12:56
Seeing it's december coming up
Marlena Compton: 18:12:59
That will be <checks calendar>
Michael Larsen: 18:13:00
Thank you all for letting me participate in this session with you.
Richard R: 18:13:04
right, yes, i have to do some dishes before we bowl India out
Oliver Erlewein: 18:13:11
Yeah 25.12!
Michael Larsen: 18:13:16
This gives me some additional ideas to try out on WTA in the future :).
Marlena Compton: 18:13:23
Might be January.  I'll be on the track for Christmas.
Richard R: 18:13:38
Yeah, that might be a good idea. January.
Marlena Compton: 18:13:45
January 23, folks.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:13:51
Yeah, I think next one around mid jan would be good.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:13:59
23 sounds good.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:14:13
maybe I can get Richard here or Thomas to do something
Richard R: 18:14:16
Yes, all will be back from holidays by then. Feels like it could be Welly Anni
Marlena Compton: 18:14:31
I can't believe it's time to break for holidays.  Hope you guys have good holidays.  WTANZ has made coming to Australia much easier.  I appreciate all of you.
Marlena Compton: 18:15:05
Ok, yes, I went all cheesy.  That's what holidays are for.
Marlena Compton: 18:15:19
Cheers, see y'all in January :)
Oliver Erlewein: 18:15:29
Nope, no Welly-day then
Marlena Compton: 18:15:37
Marlena Compton: 18:15:44
Following week then?
Marlena Compton: 18:15:59
Or previous?  Which is better
Oliver Erlewein: 18:16:01
(blush)  oh wow Marlena
Oliver Erlewein: 18:16:10
23rd sounds just fine
Oliver Erlewein: 18:16:23
please include in write up for this WTANZ pls
Michael Larsen: 18:16:39
BTW, if y'all want to add me to your twitter feeds, I'm @mkltesthead.
Richard R: 18:16:40
See you everybody! Thanks for the session. !!! (Welly Anni weekend)
Marlena Compton: 18:16:54
Somebody tell me what Welly Weekend is.
Oliver Erlewein: 18:17:28
Every city/area in NZ has one anniversary day in the year
Oliver Erlewein: 18:18:01
no idea why and it is annoying (calling Auckland on a Monday and no-one's there)
Oliver Erlewein: 18:18:16
but it's good for me getting another day off!
Marlena Compton: 18:18:19
Ok, that makes sense.  and you're both in Wellington.  Welli(ngton) Anni(versary). I get it now.
Michael Larsen: 18:18:26
Have a happy Holidays, and look forward to playing with you all again next time around, whenever that turns out to be ;).
Oliver Erlewein: 18:18:45
Happy Xmas and a swell new year!
Marlena Compton: 18:19:10
Thanks for joining us Michael :)
Marlena Compton: 18:19:30
Back at ya Oliver :)